Clutch engagement problems.

[dragonov_elite]

I am having clutch engagement issues preventing me from driving car car. Car will not go into any gear at all, With the exception of reverse that grinds if attempted. Bleed system several times and adjusted master cylinder in both directions and followed jack trans videos as well as jafro mobiles video's.

I have changed the master cylinder due to a leak, Now the slave because i had an extra oem one on hand that i wanted to see if it would change anything.

What might be wrong is,
A) I am either thinking the step height on the flywheel is incorrect.
B) There is something going on hydraulically.
C) PP is junk (it's new)

Solutions,
A) Pull the transmission and check the step height on the flywheel.
B) Try an extended slave cylinder rod (semi band-aid fix).

Fully disengaged:
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b53/dragonov_elite/2011-07-14_09-26-02_993.jpg

fully engaged:
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b53/dragonov_elite/2011-07-14_09-30-37_489.jpg

No it is not hitting the bell housing at all.

Clutch combo in the car is an ACT Xact Flywheel, south bend kevlar disk,ACT 2600pp, New Throwout bearing, new clutch fork, new pivetball(no shim needed), and SS clutch line.

Idea's? Thoughts on Extended slave rod?

[2fst-gst]

I would adjust the master as far as I could.

I would make sure there is no air in the system. How does the pedal feel?

Was anything modified on the clutch fork? Was that taken off, is the clutch brand new?

Make sure the SS clutch line fittings are on tight.

Does it go into gear with the car off and clutch in?

[dragonov_elite]

Pedal feels stock. possibly spongy but i have bled this thing at least 8 times, no change.

clutch fork has been unmodified and is new. Clutch has some low miles on it. about 20miles from previous owner. very small heat marks where on it.

Ill check the fittings again on tuesday.

goes into gear fine when car is off. ill check about how it feels when the clutch is pressed on tuesday

[2fst-gst]

sounds like some more clutch adjustment is needed and some more bleeding (try getting a vacuum pump).

From there I would try extending the slave.

[kevinRR]

Pedal feels stock. possibly spongy but i have bled this thing at least 8 times, no change.
The pedal shouldn't be spongy with the 2600. You should check the line from the master to slave and make sure there no leaks. If your using a MC from an auto part store that could be your problem. I went through 3 from Autozone and 1 from NAPA, then decided to just get an OEM one. How are you bleeding the clutch? When I bleed my clutch I just crack the bleeder till there no air coming out of it. Have someone push down on the pedal and hold it, close the bleeder then I'm done. From your description it sound like you need to do some more bleeding.

[dragonov_elite]

due to heat shit is getting put on hold lol.

[dragonov_elite]

Well bled the clutch a lot after replacing the lines with a full ss line. Still has stock even pedal pressure.I will be posting up pictures of the slave cylinder travel when I get home.

I am thinking it might ne the master cylinder is a pos.

Thoughts?

[92awd]

I just changed my slave cylinder and was having problems with the stock length rod. The previous owner rigged the old one with a real long rod and some washers between the slave and trans. Finally after trying different distances with washers and messing with the 3 slave rods i have, i got it to shift pretty nice again. My car would try to roll forward a little if i tried to shift from neutral, and it would jump forward pretty good if i tried to start it in gear with the clutch down.

[dragonov_elite]

Well I installed a good used oem master cylinder today. Just onto bleeding it to see how that works out.

[ChiTownHussla]

keep us updated. could be the shifter cables need adjusting. Mine did at one point after I changed the clutch

[dragonov_elite]

Well I re-bled the whole system again. I am getting a stiffer pedal but still getting lock out. The transmission does let me put the car in gear if I pump the pedal 7 to 8 times, Once in gear with the clutch fully pressed the wheels spin. So I know it is still not disengaged. I now know that the gates or what ever you call them are opening properly.

I do not know how adjusting the shift cables would help in my case.

[dragonov_elite]

I am thinking.

1, I need to shim she pivot ball more. To push the fulcrum point towards the driver side.

2, Step height is wrong.

3, Pressure plate is installed wrong/broken (highly doubt it)

[kevinRR]

Did you properly adjust the master cylinder rod after swapping the MC?

[dragonov_elite]

Yes the MC is adjusted properly and re-bled to my best ability. I even tried shimming the piston where the slave rod sits to see if that would give me enough room for the clutch to engage, Yet still nothing.

[kevinRR]

Yes the MC is adjusted properly and re-bled to my best ability. I even tried shimming the piston where the slave rod sits to see if that would give me enough room for the clutch to engage, Yet still nothing.
You shouldn't need to shim anything since you replaced the clutch fork, pivot ball. Even with an incorrect step height on the flywheel, you should still be able to put the car in gear. If you were closer I wouldn't mind stopping by to take a look at it.

[kevinRR]

Well I re-bled the whole system again. I am getting a stiffer pedal but still getting lock out. The transmission does let me put the car in gear if I pump the pedal 7 to 8 times
After reading this it seem as your hydraulic system is the problem. Its kind of hard to diagnose a problem over the internet man.

[dragonov_elite]

Yea I think I might have a bubble in the SC or two bad SC lol. Idk its just weird why it is acting this way.

[dragonov_elite]

Seems hard to believe though because of all the bleeding and I even bench bled the SC.

[dragonov_elite]

Well once again went through and made sure there are no bubbles in the SC, As well as the whole system again. Found non. I have been using the bleeding procedure from TRE.

I even had someone pump and hold the clutch so i could watch the travel of the SC and it all extends to the same point. I went and pulled the boot from the clutch fork to observe if the PP fingers where being pushed in (no visible problems there that i can tell).

One thing i have noticed and thought was a little weird was that when trying to put the car into gear. (not forcing it) The wheels will start to rotate when a gear is being selected even though the car is out of gear but just resting on the gates.

Thoughts?

[dragonov_elite]

After to many hours of research and clutch bleeding and adjustment i have came to the conclusion that the problem is not my hydraulic system but it is in fact the ACT 2600 pressure plate being to heavy of a clutch to disengage from my SBC TZ clutch disk. Effin great.

Asked Tim Z about it and he is in agreement of the problem and has recommended for a new PP from SBC. The series of PP he recommended where the SS or the SS-X. Tim Z recommended the SS-X PP for the problem that i am currently having.

[ChiTownHussla]

Glad to hear you found it

[dragonov_elite]

Well ordered the ss-x series PP from twicks69 (Tim Z) and he already has it ready to go and ship out today and it should be here friday or monday.

[ChiTownHussla]

NICE!

[dragonov_elite]

Well update.

Put in the new PP and still nothing. Installed a new OEM SC and re-bled with no change in results.

So far i have changed all my hydraulics to new OEM, have bled via TRE specs and adjusted MC to Jacktrans specs. Every thing else is either new or has less than 8k miles on it.

Could a 2g clutch fork be bent by a act2600 pp right after an install?

One thing i have noticed and thought was a little weird was that when trying to put the car into gear. (not forcing it) The wheels will start to rotate when a gear is being selected even though the car is out of gear but just resting on the gates.

Ideas?

[2fst-gst]

definitely wouldn't hurt trying another fork. Did you inspect the one in there now when you replaced the clutch? How about flywheel step height while you where in there?

Also wouldn't hurt to see if shimming the fork does anything.

[XLR8]

throwout bearing replaced with pressure plate?

[dragonov_elite]

definitely wouldn't hurt trying another fork. Did you inspect the one in there now when you replaced the clutch? How about flywheel step height while you where in there?

Also wouldn't hurt to see if shimming the fork does anything.

Step height is correct. Inspected the TOB and fork and everything was solid. No heat marks on the TOB or abnormal wear.

The TOB was reused from the stock clutch i had put in there last season. Has 8k miles on it at the most.

The fork is in the proper start position as vfaq and jacks show.

[2fst-gst]

I read through this again, and you have said you checked everything in the system according to spec, etc. BUT, if everything is in spec and it still doesn't work right, then something is out of wack/spec. These systems are not to complicated. Keep checking things and trying to track down what's going on.

Its usually something simple. Get a couple of dsm guys from the area over and rip that bitch apart and go back at it.

Could you clutch pedal be bad?

[dragonov_elite]

Clutch pedal assembly is in good condition. Im gonna take the flywheel to a different machinist to have it checked over too see if the other machinist was off. Ill also be buying a new TOB and comp clutch fork.

Do you know what size shim is used on the pivot ball?

[Integra 26R]

I have to run a washer under the pivot ball on my 1g. But only one two won't work. And it's just a washer from my bolt bin. No washer and it feels funny. Act clutch fidenza flywheel. I just did an accord with a bad master and it wouldn't bleed. Finally did a hand pump vacuum bleeder and that got it better and then adjusted the pushrod to get a off the floor and that seems to be ok.

[dragonov_elite]

So this ring does not look normal at all lol. Getting the step height re check today.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b53/dragonov_elite/2011-09-21_15-19-29_60.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b53/dragonov_elite/2011-09-21_15-19-44_618.jpg

[dragonov_elite]

Well had the step height checked again and watched them do it this time. Well turns out the flywheel is in spec ".610" as OE recommends.

Checked my clutch fork again with a good fork that a friend had on hand. Turns out the fork is not bent at all.

Him and i are both starting to think that it might be the transmission was on its way out when i pulled it. Luckily i have a spare trans and transfer case. i am gonna pull apart the current trans and see if that was the problem before installing my other trans.

Honestly i do not know what else it could be.

Suggestions??????

[Integra 26R]

One thing i have noticed and thought was a little weird was that when trying to put the car into gear. (not forcing it) The wheels will start to rotate when a gear is being selected even though the car is out of gear but just resting on the gates.

Ideas?

Since you asked twice, yes it is normal. And I missed it before but how do you bench bleed a slave cylinder?

I would have to say that you are missing something. Maybe you should consider another opinion since you're going in circles and looking at things like flywheel step height and extended pushrods (does the same as a washer under the pivot). Based on the slave movement picture it barely moves. It should move almost an inch. You have to figure out if it's the clutch or hydraulics before just ripping it all apart. That's the easy part. The slave either moves enough or it doesn't.

What broke to start this anyways?

[dragonov_elite]

i was using the same method as jafromobile on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/user/Jafromobile#p/u/41/AWKybsZMHZs

I had a local mechanic check out the travel for the clutch fork and he said it looked good. basically if the fork goes any much further (there's room but not much) there is a good chance it is gonna make contact with the bell housing.

Shamus (the guy who wants to look at the trans) he said it could be worn gear selectors in the trans. i am not a trans expert.

[90tsiawd]

I've been reading this thread as it's been growing and always wanted to say maybe it was your trans....

[dragonov_elite]

What broke to start this anyways?

You might need to find my build thread in the 2g section (show and tell). Upgraded the clutch from stock to this setup for the ability to handle the new power potential of the setup.

[Integra 26R]

And you have both dowels and the starter plate in? Sound dumb but is there a torque converter bushing stuck in the crank? I have actually seen that before. How's the pilot bearing? Was this the trans that was in it when you pulled it apart and if so how was it before? I have yet to hear of a trans that shifts when not running but won't when running. That always points to a clutch issue. Flywheel bolted down evenly and not on slightly crooked? The other big one on a competition clutch was the disc wouldn't slide on the input shaft so even with the pressure plate disengaging it would still be tight on the flywheel causing the car not to shift.

[dragonov_elite]

And you have both dowels and the starter plate in? Sound dumb but is there a torque converter bushing stuck in the crank? I have actually seen that before. How's the pilot bearing? Was this the trans that was in it when you pulled it apart and if so how was it before? I have yet to hear of a trans that shifts when not running but won't when running. That always points to a clutch issue. Flywheel bolted down evenly and not on slightly crooked? The other big one on a competition clutch was the disc wouldn't slide on the input shaft so even with the pressure plate disengaging it would still be tight on the flywheel causing the car not to shift.


Yes two dowel pins and the correct starter plate. The input shaft was greased and the clutch disk would move freely.

Everything was torqued to spec and was thread locked (red).

[dragonov_elite]

I do almost feel like the disk is not sliding on the input shaft. Any ideas on how to check for that?

[Integra 26R]

Take the disc and slide it on the input shaft by hand (tran out obviously). It should slide smoothly.

[thatTSIguy]

I had a friend with a 2G gs-t exact same flippin problem. After we had got it to eventually run the next thing we noticed was this exact same problem. The car wouldn't go into any gear unless forced, so we replaced the transmission and it still wouldn't go into gear very well. We replaced MC and bled the damn thing atleast thirty times before it started to go into gear better. It wasn't exactly perfect so we adjusted the clutch to give it more throw and it was slightly better so we ended up getting a new clutch for it. I am not sure if the clutch and flywheel would have solved it because he sold it before we did it due to frustration but we replaced everything besides clutch and flywheel and still had stiffness getting into gear.

[90tsiawd]

My friend had a clutch problem similar to this after reinstalling his setup on his 97 gst....finally after he bled the hell out of it tons of times it finally worked again

[dragonov_elite]

Still having problems.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b53/dragonov_elite/th_2011-10-12_14-51-14_540.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b53/dragonov_elite/?action=view&current=2011-10-12_14-51-14_540.mp4)

Gonna be rechecking the clutch pedal assembly and the MC again.

[dragonov_elite]

Rebuilding the MC tomorrow.

[dragonov_elite]

Rebuilt the mc today with no change of condition.

[BMAtsi]

Its the act flywheel i had same issue

[CoronaDsm]

How many times did u bleed the clutch? I had the same problem when i rebiult my motor. It would go into gear fine when off but when it was running it would grind and not go into gear. So all i did was bleed it probly 25-35 times until the clutch pedal was stif again and i have not had that problem since. I geuss i would just bleed it through a hell of alot of times and see if tue clutch pedal even gets any stiffer

[dragonov_elite]

Its the act flywheel i had same issue
I had my flywheel checked at a machine shop i am sure it is not the cause.

What turned out to be the problem with your flywheel?

I have bled the clutch a F@#$ load of times and have good pedal pressure now. Currently trying some new parts to see if they work.

[dragonov_elite]

Well sent out the PP, Flywheel, and Disk to SBC last week. Found out today that they are all in good working condition.

Now currently pulling the shim behind the pivot ball and putting some new axle shaft seals in. Also checking everything over again.

[staztrx250]

we had this problem with a act clutch on a honda and ended up just trying a new brand

[dragonov_elite]

Update.

Finally got this thing to drive for the first time last night.

Ended up putting a 3000gt vr4 SC with the rod from the 2g SC. Well after bleeding it thoroughly finally got it into gear. I am however gonna need to tweak the system a little to get the disengagment a little off of the floor. But imo I dont care it works lol.

Pedal stiffness is by far heavier than what it was with 2g SC because the 3000gt vr4 SC has a smaller diameter cylinder.

[2fst-gst]

good to hear. Now get it dialed in!

[dragonov_elite]

That is the plan for tuesday through friday lol.